Episode Two with Special Guest Lizzie Shepherd - Feb 20
Hello and welcome to On Landscape Any Questions episode 2 with our usual guest, Joe Cornish, and our special guest, Lizzie Shepherd. And we've asked our readers for a few questions. We have a couple of pages of interesting questions submitted and we said to make the questions roughly around printing and exhibiting because I know Lizzie does quite a lot. Joe does a lot of it as well. And also around skiing because I know you've been away quite a few times on some trips skiing.
Speaker 1:Is Sweden. Is that correct?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Sweden Sweden's one of them. Although I haven't been to Sweden for a wee while. Norway is also the normal place for cross country skiing, but last year we actually did some, ski touring sort of off a boat in, Svalbard, which was pretty amazing. So big skis rather than the little skinny ones.
Speaker 1:Is that a bit different than doing it in Sweden? There are not many polar bears in Sweden?
Speaker 2:No. Not that I'm aware of. Normally, you're desperate to see a polar bear, but most of the time there, you you were desperate not to. I mean, they're they're armed and so on, but they've never had to to use those, guns thankfully. But we saw one from a long way away, which was pretty amazing.
Speaker 1:Well, we do have a question about scheme, which we'll include for later in the, later in the talk, but we'll start off on a little bit about exhibiting and printing. Now I'll ask you first, Lizzie. You you've had a few exhibitions, is that right? You print your own work. Now how how did you get into, starting to produce exhibitions or put them on?
Speaker 2:I've probably been printing my own stuff for about 20 years or so now I think and I used to I was part of the Yorkshire based which I think probably still exists called Brigantia which was a mix of different artists across all sort of genre and I used to do some events with them so that was probably initially how I got into it I think and then a few things in local galleries and so on. So it's it's a tricky one in the UK. I think photography isn't as valued as we'd probably like as an art form.
Speaker 1:No. So what what's your experience been like exhibiting? Has it been productive for you?
Speaker 2:Very, very mixed. I exhibited at an event, down south in Guildford a few years ago, and that was quite a revelation because that was just way better than than anything I've ever done in the malls I have to say. And I think that that does probably speak for itself a bit. But, yes, it's a tricky one. The kind of the events over weekends and stuff, I stopped doing those.
Speaker 2:I found they could be, a bit, soul destroying to me. Yeah. And so Mick, you just can't tell.
Speaker 1:And what about you, Joe? I know you've had quite a few exhibitions. Have they been generally successful?
Speaker 3:Definitely not, Tim. Not economically. Anyway, creatively, I'd like to think so. But I just wanted to say that in spite of Lizzie's kind of obvious modesty, she was at at the gallery in Northampton. She was our most successful photographer by quite a quite a distance.
Speaker 3:So, although it might have been steady rather than, rather than overwhelmingly productively, you you were the star of our show there, pretty much all the time. And, and we did consistently sell Lizzie's work. It didn't really seem to matter what the state of the economy was. Her her work has a a real universal appeal, I think, and that's that's pretty rare. Yeah.
Speaker 3:It's just, you know, to confirm what this is saying about the market. It's very, very difficult in the UK in general, and it's particularly difficult in the north where I mean, I think the economy is obviously not at this point, and people are quite careful with their money. And whether there's a a a kind of, a willingness to appreciate that in order to do a certain kind of photography, you do need you still need to make a living. So, and I think that's, you know, as a working photographer, there are there are only so many ways that you can do that. So but if you wanted to go out and just photograph, for the arts for art's sake and make prints, I I'm not sure I know anybody who can do that and make a living, other than maybe Michael Kenner.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I think in America, that's very different. People have bigger walls and perhaps bigger budgets. What I will ask briefly before I get into people's questions is, do you have any idea what people buy? Is there any patterns to print purchases from exhibitions you've had? The Lizzie first.
Speaker 2:If I knew if I if I knew, I might be rich. No. I mean, one of the things I think that probably pleased me most about the the sort of work I sold at the gallery over the years was I think, you know, when I first started exhibiting I kind of assumed I'd need to show local work, and probably that was mostly, you know, what what I did then, you know, kind of landscapes of places, if you like. But over the years, I found it was definitely more places that could have been anywhere that that sold, which was nice, or, slightly more abstract takes perhaps.
Speaker 1:And, Tod, did you find a particular idea of patterns of purchase, or is it fairly random?
Speaker 3:I mean, I'm just really interested again to to listen to Lizzie's, anecdotes on that because I would say, for for me, probably there's been more emphasis on place. But I also think a large amount of that is to do with what, the box people put you in. You know, I think I was probably put in the in the landscape vista box a long time ago. And and yet, you know, I'm I'm very much a general practitioner as a photographer. I love photographing pretty much everything and anything in the landscape.
Speaker 3:And and, of course, it somehow, in a way, feels more creatively productive. Not productive, maybe more just satisfying when you sell work that you feel is really artistic and, and expresses something really personal. And we should do so the those pictures, to those customers who, you know, who don't care where it is, but they're just inspired by the atmosphere and the composition and the, the creativity of the work. But, yeah, the reality the harsh reality for me is that many of my pictures were of Rosemary Topping and Whitney, which, the the yeah. Very, very well known destinations.
Speaker 3:I mean, I'd like to think they were good photographs, but, you know, that's not really the point. A lot of it was to do with personal association, and I,
Speaker 1:you
Speaker 3:know, I benefited from that to an extent, but I also suffered from it a little, I think, too.
Speaker 1:Okay. We'll go on to the, question from Matt Bishop, and I think it's a really interesting one actually. If Peter Dombrovskis was alive today, what level of engagement with digital photography would he have or not? Would he stay natural to the landscape or would he move with the times? And I think that's that's quite intriguing about who he was, what he did, and the environment he worked in.
Speaker 1:So, Joe first, I think.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It is. And, I feel I do feel I I hope I feel qualified to answer this because I I'm a big fan of Peter's work and have studied it in-depth. Have never met him, sadly, so I couldn't really have asked. And when he died, which was, I think, 1996, it was it really preceded digital.
Speaker 3:Certainly, any any kind of decent, digital capture. I do believe he would have adopted digital because it it would have made sense for Peter the way he worked. He would have been able to carry slightly less gear if he'd wanted to, for example, and to make the same sort of photographs that he did, but with a great deal more control. Not to say that his work's uncontrolled, but he's obviously restrained by in exactly the same way as all of us who shot large format film was by the amount of film you could carry, and the nature of the material itself, the, you know, the strong signature of film, if you will, and the limitations of that. I'm absolutely a 100% certain he would have stuck with his agenda creatively, which was was to look at nature and to try and reflect on its beauty as it was.
Speaker 3:I I just don't think there's any sign in his work that he would have wished to have gone creative. I mean, doctor, you know, his work is creative, of course, but it's it's very much in the way of being creative in this in with the with the grain and flow of the natural world and always respecting and honoring it as as a reality as opposed to a starting point for a personal exploration, artistically, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think I think he had a very, very strong sense of his identity and how he wanted to present the world from and it was quite consistent across most of his work, I think. You know Lizzie Dombrowski's worked quite well Lizzie.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Not as well as you guys but I am familiar with it and I, you know, definitely I think I I to me, though, you know, from what I've known and seen, there'd be no doubt that he would have, you know, continued in that same vein albeit probably using modern technology. I mean, there's, I can't for the life of me to give a surname, but you know Jeff who's on on Facebook and previous on Flickr who actually knew him and I think he's a good friend of his.
Speaker 1:And that's
Speaker 2:the one. Yes. And he a super photographer and he, you know, he's used to use film and is now using digital, but his style of photography, from what I can see, has remained constant.
Speaker 1:Pretty much so. Yeah. It's conditioned really well.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, you know, and and I I suspect it would have been a very similar story.
Speaker 1:I've got a question, from from Joe for you, Lizzie, here. A couple of things. First of all, it's like a question of how you got started with your own photography. And also, do you have a photographic agenda at the moment? Or have you had a photographic agenda historically at the moment?
Speaker 2:What is it? Yeah. Well, getting into photography, I think it's a funny one because I never it's partly because my memory is not what it might be, but, I mean, you know, I had a camera since about 9 or 10, and, you know, a couple of my brothers were the keen photographers and my parents were, to a degree, you know, I mean, they've they've always documented their travels, and I think I just, you know, I just started using 1 as a matter of course. And I guess it was for me. It was partly for Unifin.
Speaker 2:I went away, particularly once I got a bit older on the holidays stuff. It was a way of of of just, you know, taking travel photographs and so on and then I got more into university and I did actually want to do be a photographer when I left university, but I and I did work for a few, studio photographers and things in Edinburgh. But then I, yeah, I met Rob and got a bit distracted and I actually wanted to do travel photography, and I thought, well, don't want to be away all the time. And so I kind of it kind of went on the back burner a bit until I came back into it. And I I can't tell you exactly and I guess just that it's been always there and it's I think for me the nicest thing about photography is how it helps you see and I just think you know that it does you know it just focuses your vision and your ability to notice things so much.
Speaker 1:When when when you first exposed to a a classic landscape photography?
Speaker 2:Do you mean as in other photographers or doing it myself?
Speaker 1:Yeah no as in other photographers.
Speaker 2:Yeah I mean I remember I remember going to I don't know if there was an exhibition in the Royal Photography Site in Bath, but I remember buying an Ansel Adams calendar or something there years years years years ago. You know, that would probably be one of my earliest men memories of in terms of a a classical sort of photographer. And then, yeah, I started getting outdoor photography, I think, relatively early days, and that maybe kind of reawaken things a wee bit. And we've always, you know, we've always we we used to live in Edinburgh, we used to go away to different islands and the Highlands and stuff all the time, sadly I was too sort of lazy to carry my much gear with me in those days, which is silly because I was an awful lot younger and fitter than I am now. It would have been a lot easier.
Speaker 2:But, but it was more about being out there and and and, you know, I did take photos, but there weren't very good on the whole, to be honest.
Speaker 1:So in terms of your current
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Mode of photography, do you do you still do photography mainly as a way of seeing the world? So the actual travel?
Speaker 2:I think I do. It's funny because I know I've and I've I was actually firm enough looking because I think when Charlotte sent out the email, you know, about me doing this, it it mentioned the interviews I've done with you. And I thought I thought it'd be interested to look at I looked at the latest one, you know, which was a few years ago, and I think with Michaela and I. I see I've often talked about the fact that I kind of feel I should branch out a bit or do something different. And it's interesting though because I've been thinking about that more the last I don't know year or so and I thought well actually you know for me photography is about doing what you love and if what I love is doing the same thing but trying to do it better, then do I need to branch out?
Speaker 2:I don't know. It probably sounds horribly lazy and and unadventurous, but but actually, I just feel there's there's so much out there, and it it's it's so hard to do justice to the world around us that, you know, why not just keep trying?
Speaker 3:Can I jump in there, Tim? Because I just think that that that's really fascinating what Lizzie just said. I I totally echo that sentiment in a way. And I I had a I kind of similar, almost like a crisis, about 20 years ago, not long after I finished working on First Light. And I I started working on Scotland's coast, and then, as you may remember, I did a book called Scotland's Mountains a few years later.
Speaker 3:And at that point, I felt I felt like I was kind of stuck in a groove and, you know, was I just repeating myself and, how could I possibly justify that creatively? And and and so feeling quite guilty about it almost. And when when I worked on Scotland's mountains, it was so difficult. It was so it was so practically difficult. I I really couldn't start reinventing the wheel.
Speaker 3:And and so I I just carry on doing, as as you were saying, doing what I love to do And and just having to having to deal with the practical difficulties that come of working in, you know, falling snow and up high mountains, you know, and being very, very tired or out for very, very long hours. All the things that make doing this kind of work quite a a challenge physically and, emotionally as well as creatively. And and since then, I I've, I've had lots of conversations with various people, including non photographers about how they work. And and I've come to the realization that this kind of notion of needing to be original all the time is a kind of it's a it's like a western, construct in a way, which actually doesn't really make sense, because what what you do, it it has to come from the heart. Ultimately, it has to come from within.
Speaker 3:And do something that's, that's new for the sake of it is is basically phoning. But but there are there's a number of ways of thinking about it, which help to keep you excited and interested in, if you like, creative. And and my answer to that question is the x and y axis of photography where the where the x axis, the horizontal axis is exploring the world using your technique and your method and your aesthetic, not to repeat what you've done, but because every encounter will be different in the landscape. And that's equivalent to being a very good musician who also tries a different instrument here and there and you know? So the different locations we go to, the geography, if you like, that that inspires us with its novelty and its fascination and, all of the lessons we learn about the world as a result.
Speaker 3:But the places where we really can be original are actually close to home. Why? Because we're already familiar with them. So we're already in that mode of wanting to not repeat what we've done before. So we start to then experiment naturally to look for new perspectives or to try a new technique or to, you know, look at composition differently in order to push our our kind of creative envelope.
Speaker 3:So that's the y axis. And I I personally think that that's that's how the creative life evolves, at least in our medium. There's the breadth of the of the of nature and the world that we look at, and then there's the, there's the depth of our own perception and creativity, which is a vertical one. And it tends to be focused, not always, but it tends to be focused around where we live, you know, what we're really familiar with, where we're already able to extend more naturally. And I think that provides an authentic way of translating the world.
Speaker 3:And, of course, eventually, you bring those new techniques and ideas into your other locales and locations. Sorry. I'm waffling on too long, but does that make sense?
Speaker 2:No. That does. That's, sort of quite quite reassuring in a way.
Speaker 3:Worried about it. Exactly. I think it's, you know, you just be yourself and I I I would argue. But, you know, you you you will want to keep pushing yourself naturally. I think that just comes, you know, from the work that you do close to home or places that you know and love and have been to many, many times, and that gives you the kind of permission to try new things.
Speaker 2:That really I mean, I think, you know, you did Got it. Deduced to try new new new stuff, but it's it's it's it's what I call an evolve evolvement more than a, you know, complete sort of turnabout change.
Speaker 1:Reminds me of the the Helsinki bus station theory. I'm not sure if either of you are familiar with that, which is, I I won't I won't go into depth with it. But if you if you Google Helsinki bus station theory, the idea is that if you want to get anywhere, a lot of photographers get on a bus or an idea, use it for a little while, think it's not working for them, so they go back and start with another idea, getting on another bus. So they go back to the bus station, getting on another bus. And the idea behind the theory is if you want to get anywhere, you've got to stay on the bloody bus.
Speaker 1:Because that's where you get
Speaker 2:start. Remember that one. It always makes me think of that awful that awful song, Sayella Ribbon. Remember it?
Speaker 1:Oh, the end. The radio 2 classics.
Speaker 2:Yes. Hello.
Speaker 3:I'm I'm intrigued by by the fact of it being Helsinki. I've not I've not heard that one. But, I mean, I do I do think it's true that you have to stay on the bus. At least, creatively speaking, you have to you have to keep working. And and that's the same in all media.
Speaker 3:You know, if you if you talk to any musicians, writers, poets, painters, and so on, they all work all the time. You know, that's to become any good, and you go through your those periods where nothing much is happening and it's frustrating and you you don't feel inspired, you just carry on. And sooner or later, something happens that, you know, gives you a moment and and you you find yourself once again moving forward or however you wanna put it. And by the way, personally, I'm a I'm not at all of the the view that you should, have an outcome in mind in any case. I mean, I think it the process itself is really what counts.
Speaker 3:And the the joy of just being a a photographer joy being a landscape photographer, I mean, it's just such an amazing thing to do. I think we're incredibly lucky. And, and so, you know, we we should be grateful for for that, if nothing else, and, you know, keep going out because it's just great fun to be outside with a camera. And and if anything else happens and we happen to produce a good picture, well then, you know, happy days, but it is a potential. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Good. The next question for for for either of you or both of you. It's, it's from Paul Belford. Sorry. From Kai Thompson, this next one.
Speaker 1:And he said it's inspired by a van der Olavska interview, which is, is there a big difference or is there a difference at all between the way men and women take photographs? And I I'll I'll I'll start with a little one there. I think there is. I think there's generally, if you look at it if you look at it on an average basis, I think there is a a different point of view, which has to do with character, but I'll I'm interested in what either of you say Lizzie first.
Speaker 2:I don't know, you see, because, you know, I know I know people that sort of, you know, if if they're all sort of like a a thought that, you know, women take, I don't know, more sensitive pictures or go about it in a quieter way, say, or something like that. I don't know. But, you know, I can think of a lot of blokes that would apply to equally. And, you know, likewise, I can, you know, I can think of, you know, stereotypes from either either gender that would would potentially fit the other.
Speaker 1:So I
Speaker 2:think it would be true to say that there's a lot more from what I can see from my own experience. There's a lot more female photographers and male photographers who are more into some of the alternative techniques and things like that. I think that's that that would definitely be true, but in terms of approach, I'm I'm not sure. I'm not sure.
Speaker 1:Oh,
Speaker 3:I'm not sure if I'm qualified to answer, but I I I guess I think it's a cultural difference. Other cultural differences, yes, because on the whole, I I think that men feel a pressure to, quote, unquote, achieve, perhaps more so, than than women do. But I I I and yet, creatively, I I would argue that some of the the most pioneering photographers of our of our day of our time are most definitely women. You know, without giving any names, nearly almost all of really the leading photographers in the world that I think of and look up to as being creatively pioneering a female. I mean, there are some men as well.
Speaker 3:I don't use a strong, you know, huge schism there. And I I'm not saying that men aren't capable of creativity. It's far from it. I think women are every bit as ambitious as as men in terms of the creativity. I think that there's, there might be one, aspect as a workshop leader that I've observed, which is that is women are are on on the whole seem to be much less interested in equipment and much more interested in the process of creating pictures.
Speaker 3:That's not to say that men are not, of course, but there is a lot of men who love the gear and spend lot of time talking about it and discussing it as if it was important, which, you know, it isn't really other than that it's like like being a musician in a way. Knowing your instrument well is helpful because, you know, you need to have good technique, to be able to control and be consistent and so on. And that's the same for same in music, same in photography. And I most most leading female photographers are brilliant technicians. They just don't talk about it very much.
Speaker 3:So because it's not it's not the forefront of the of the thought process. It's just a means to an end rather than an end in itself. But I think that's true of all good photographers. The the equipment and the technique is just a means to an end. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And the whatever the end is, you don't really know. But what you're trying to do is express something meaningful, to you, and that that gives significance to the process. I'm not sure if that this all sounds a bit amorphous, but, I'm really, really reluctant to get into any kind of gender division here because I think that it's it's it's a bit provocative, and we all know of exceptions to the rules that
Speaker 1:everybody up is there.
Speaker 2:But I
Speaker 1:think I think in the music music side, it could be quite an interesting parallel there because I look at guitarists And I looked at male versus female guitarist in the sort of hobbyist amateur level. And I think as as a general rule, men are more interested in flashy, showing off type guitar playing, and women are more interested in songs and the final output. And that's that's more what I've seen as an average. As you say, you can't make any rules with this. And I think with the photography
Speaker 2:I don't think that would apply to classical.
Speaker 1:With what? With classical?
Speaker 2:With classical. No. I I don't you know, I can think of, you know, people of either gender who who who, you know, play in what I would consider a relatively similar sort of vein if you like. So I I'm not sure it would apply apply so much there.
Speaker 1:We'll move on to another.
Speaker 3:I was gonna say if we'd sorry, Tim. Just to see if we're able to get into guitar playing, although I know nothing about guitar playing, but I know a few amazing guitarists and, you know, I I I'm just thinking of of, say, Eric Clapton or, the, Mark Knopfler, who are incredibly sensitive guitarists. So I would I would argue so, you know, and and play with an extraordinary level of soul and commitment, which isn't to do with being flashy. So, you know, just to defend men briefly there.
Speaker 2:And I'm
Speaker 3:sure you you but you were saying among amateur. Yes. Yes.
Speaker 1:It's it's a general a general rule about why people get into things, and and I think I think men men often have different ways of looking at hobbies. And I know I've I've seen that with quite a few friends with cycling, for instance. There's a there's a different different approach to why people do things, but I'll leave that one. We'll move on to another controversial topic. It's a question from Paul Belford, and he's asking saying about many people visiting or running workshops in the stunningly beautiful Faroe Islands.
Speaker 1:The Faroe Islands don't come without their controversy and I'll try and make this a bit more generic. Do photographers have a responsibility to be, aware or and react to the environmental ethical considerations of where they photograph, and what they do. And we'll use we'll use maybe the firearms as an example, maybe some some I'll I'll start with that one. Joe.
Speaker 3:Okay. So I'll put my cards on the table. I don't go to the Faroes, and I won't go to the Faroes. However, I would not judge anyone who went to the Faroes negatively because I I think it's a personal decision. And I don't think the Faroe and its landscape is guilty for the kind of cultural values of the Faroeese.
Speaker 3:I also think that all of these issues are extraordinarily complex. And I think to just judge superficially is always a little bit risky. So in terms of the grind or the grind, I mean, it sounds on the face of it absolutely appalling what happens there. I I'm more concerned generally about the idea of a culture which which resists the International Whaling Commission's desire to either restrict or ban whaling globally. And, I don't think there's any need for the ferries to to kill whales, dolphins, and and other cetaceans as they do.
Speaker 3:But the landscape itself is a huge draw for landscape photographers. I understand why people want to go there, but I I personally wouldn't go. No.
Speaker 1:Lizzie?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I, I, yeah, I think Joe's comment was very, very sort of fair and valid, and I couldn't really argue with anything he said there. I, have been to the fairs once. Rob and I went about gosh. It was about 10 years ago now, and thought it was a stunning landscape.
Speaker 2:I didn't really I was aware of, although perhaps not to the degree then, about what goes on, and it does, on the face of it, horrify me. The one thing that has stuck in my mind is that, and I can't remember his name, either Alex, somebody, Scottish photographer who spent some time out there, used the big big format cameras. And I remember I'm sure I remember him saying something about the fact that it wasn't straightforward as people think. Now I've no idea what it is, but I don't, yeah, I don't know enough to, you know, on the face of it, it sounds absolutely horrific is all I have to say, and it's hard to imagine how one could justify it, but, I don't know the facts.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think this this is the problem. A lot of these ethical decisions is they are very much, reacting to publicity because Japan has equal atrocities. America has equal atrocities. I think most countries have their own version, of of bad behaviour.
Speaker 1:I think it's very easy to focus on the pharaohs because it's a small country and a and a very solid example of what happens there. But to make an ethical decision on the Fair Isle would be making ethical decisions about every country you visit.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It is it is a tricky one. I, you know, I haven't I haven't been back. I haven't moved. Would I go back?
Speaker 2:I don't know, really. But but, yeah, I think, I mean, as a more general thing, you know, as landscape photographers, I guess, and I think maybe Joe's sort of hinting at that, you know, it it's more about the, you know, I suppose, responsibility towards that as an intention, you know, trying to protect places and not not, you know, not trash the places you visit, obviously. I mean, that that's very much, I think, within our our remit and should be within our our control as best as possible. And that that is obviously, you know, in some respects, a huge issue in some areas now. So that's probably more where, as a photographer, where where my focus would lie.
Speaker 3:Yes. I I mean, I I think sorry, Tim. I think that but I don't think this is right about that. I think it is I mean, ethics are let's face it. They're they're not a kind of most of us are not really educated in the, you know, in this particular area of thought, and and it takes it there's a history to everything in culture, and and we should be mindful of that.
Speaker 3:You know, we there there are, you know, there are I support as you said, there is appalling behavior in almost every nation of any size at at least on on the planet. And I think the reason that the the fairies is just so stark is because it's a small population and, you know, they have this very, very extreme particular method. I mean, perhaps some people might feel the same way about Spain because of bullfighting and, for example, which seems on the face of it remarkably cruel and very egotistical and typically, you know, from a a particular kind of cultural position. But no doubt people who do bullfighting can probably justify it for reasons that are completely opaque and baffling to most of us. So I I'm, you know, I'm finding, generally, these questions, they do need to be discussed.
Speaker 3:And I I do think there is there's a point where we need to take responsibility for what we do. You know? And I I've already made my own position on the fairies clear, but at the same time, I do not judge. And I can't judge them personally. I just it's just how I feel about it.
Speaker 3:But, yeah, let's let's have more of these discussions. These are really, really interesting. And one thing I would like to appeal, for, though, overall is tolerance. I think there's far too little of that, in conversations. People seem to be very keen to make and pass judgments as if they knew everything about the subject, whereas the reality is most of us do not.
Speaker 1:It's polarizing. I I I would hope that just as landscape photography seems to have its fashions, the fashions for where to go seem to be moving on. I think places like Tenerife will become trendy. Ferros will lose some of its attraction. I think the only place that doesn't lose its attraction for, fashion is the Iceland.
Speaker 1:It's, it's always of interest as long as as long as the lava doesn't cover the airfield, which looks like might happen soon.
Speaker 2:I know. Gosh. Yes. I was reading about that the other day. It does sound a bit bit bit close.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It is really fascinating, actually, this latest eruption on the Reykjanes Peninsula, which we all know well because we've pretty much all flown into, into Katalvik at various times and driven along that road or been driven. And and we've, of course, been able to see I mean, I've not been there been there since the eruption started a couple of years ago, but I'm I don't know, Lizzie, if you have or Tim you have, but we know loads of people who have with their cameras and their drones. And, and and, yeah, it's it's certainly probably only going to increase the amount of interest in there is in Iceland in tourism and photographic tourism. That's absolutely amazing.
Speaker 3:Amazing. I mean, the great thing about that is it really sorry. Just briefly to it it's a it does have that element of the sublime about it, of of the kind of terrifying reality of our planet, which could easily kill us if we are not sufficiently careful.
Speaker 1:I'm on that some similar subject in a way. One of our questions from Ian Meads, and it's about, he's got a few questions. But one in particular is about the way that, he loved Lizzie's photograph of the birch trees in Norway or Sweden, depending on where they were taken. And he mentions that they remind him of Sho Hashino's photographs of birch trees in Japan, which went on Lionsgate recently, and Gabriel Stankovich's photographs of birch trees in Norway. And we had a few comments on the natural landscape competition this year about how many pictures were of snowy landscapes.
Speaker 1:And I was interested in what you think about why is snow, and the cold and these arctic landscapes, why are they so fascinating to photographers? Lizzie.
Speaker 2:Oh, how long have you got? Well, I guess I mean, there's the light, isn't there, that you you often get, I guess, with the snow aside from, you know, what the the light is is light whether it's good or bad light, the snow is often bouncing it back at your business, isn't it? So so you've often got a lovely sort of unless it's really sunny, a lovely sort of gentle light, you know, almost like the shadows filled in a bit, which appeals to me. I guess snow, a bit like mist and fog, it it does simplify things and, you know, I I I do love some of my sort of more chaotic scenes, so I guess the the snow maybe makes them slightly more more palatable. And yeah.
Speaker 2:But what we I mean, it's it's just a funny one, though. Why why so particularly snow? Maybe it's just that I I think it's the gentleness, really, of of of the colors that could go with us as well, probably for me. And also perhaps that that kind of particularly in the more extreme environments, that kind of struggle between, you know, nature and, you know, the the conditions that things can seemingly thrive in. I mean, it it always amazes me when we're cross country skiing in in Norway, and we saw the same in in, Sweden as the birches, there's what what they can sort of put up with and and seemingly prosper.
Speaker 2:And they're tough little trees, so I think, you know, that's that's part of it is that kind of that kind of struggle you see almost and how how nature seems to find a way of just coping with such extreme extreme conditions. And, obviously, if you're going, you know, further afield, be that Iceland or or, you know, Svalbard or or anywhere else. You know, you've got all the amazing, ice formations, the glaciers, and so on. So it's, I guess, it's it's a combination of things, but but, you know, at that extreme, it becomes really quite an exotic landscape as well.
Speaker 1:Joe?
Speaker 3:Well, well, that I mean, I think Lizzie sort of said almost everything that could be said about snow, which is relevant to us as photographers. But I I have just got back from Norway, by the way, so lucky me. And had nearly 2 weeks in a nonstop snowstorm. And I loved every second of it, really, whatever the conditions. All of the things that Lizzie said, the magic of the lighting, and the, I I I think it is the simplification ultimately.
Speaker 3:And after all, it's very difficult to photograph woodland. Does does do is it exposes trees as marks on white on a white ground as as if you were drawing or using charcoal, especially birch trees because they're quite slender with lots of little twigs and fiddly. And then sometimes, of course, if if it hasn't been too windy or there's a particular type of snow, the the the the that each twig will take the snow and just almost dissolve into these soft forms. You know, just so you you get little clues to where they are and see these wonderful shapes of I I guess it's a it's hard to it's hard to describe it. Is it just a mystery, to know exactly why?
Speaker 3:But, yeah, I think I think the monochrome nature of it helps to simplify too. So you're not necessarily coping with lots of color. And and so the linear graphic expressive with or without mountains behind, it all becomes very exciting and and inspiring. And it's in many ways, it's easier than photographing in, you know, in a kind of full color spring or summer landscape. And I think that is is part of the, part of the appeal of it, I'm afraid to say, because I don't like things that are easy, but that is.
Speaker 1:It is simplified things, but it's also, I think, transformative when you think when we think about other things that landscape photographers love like mist, and the sea, set desert, sand dunes. They're all things that change that that that change over time or that change the way the landscape looks that you can apply your own thoughts to and your own creativity to.
Speaker 3:Yeah. That's true. And our snow landscape is constantly changing because of the wind and the snow falling or melting or whatever it may be. So it's always very, very temporary. And and it is transformative as you say.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, it tends to amplify the differences in the lighting and and the effect of play. So ice you know, the ultimate the ultimate, transfiguring or transforming subject is ice because it is literally always changing. And that's so no piece of ice you photograph at one moment, and, you know, within a few minutes, it'll either melt it or require more snow or whatever it may be. So there's this wonderful kind of power and dynamic power to it.
Speaker 1:I've got another question for me and me. It's regarding, it it's for Lizzie, but it's pretty applicable to both of you. As a fellow cross cross country skier, he's curious what photo gear Lizzie typically uses on our ski tours, whether you use your normal gear or choose a lighter weight gear, especially when you're doing multiple days out in the landscape. And I know, Joe, you've camped out in the landscape in the snow before, and and Lizzie has has as well. So, Lizzie, does how do you change your gear or adapt it to multi day trips in snow?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, there was a time when I was still using SLRs, which were typically that much bigger and heavier. I did have a smaller Fuji, you know, the crop sensor sort of ones as we're talking some years ago now, and I did typically I would take those with me. But, my problem with and I know Joe uses all sorts of different systems. My problem with using more than one system is my brain can't can't cope with having to flip between the 2, and I start sort of reaching for things that are there on on the the different cameras and so on.
Speaker 2:So since I moved to Sony, which was ideally the best of both worlds, which was, I think, 2016, I have just been using Sony full frame on various iterations of the a seven r, with, admittedly, quite a few different lenses because although there were quite a few changes sorry. Quite a few lenses to start with. A lot of them were either not that great or very heavy or so on, so I've kind of evolved a bit over time. But like, say, in in Foul Bud last year, I mean, it was only a day at a time, but you were going uphill, so I didn't add a lot of safety gear to carry as well. So I just had the the Sony with the 20 to 70 attached, which is really pretty light.
Speaker 2:And I would have liked to take my sensor to 200, but it was gonna add over another kilo on, and I just kept that for when we were on the boat because, you know, to be honest, at the time, because it wasn't a photography trip, it was a a skiing trip, and, you didn't want to keep people waiting all the time. You know, I knew my options were a bit limited, so faffing around, changing lenses, and so on probably wasn't gonna be ideal. But generally speaking, you know, if if I've got something a bit lighter weight telephoto, I'll have that with me as well and just just for the utility wider angle to slightly tele zoom. But if I could only have 1, it would would be that 1, and I don't typically take a tripod either. I did when we did the King's Trail, which was to hut.
Speaker 2:I had a tripod with me, but I think I was probably only using that during the sort of early morning and late evening when we were actually at the huts, probably not. I don't remember for sure, but I probably didn't during the day when we were skiing.
Speaker 3:Ken? Wow. Now I'm just just trying to visualize Lizzie moving through the snow and, you know, just popping a camera and seeing these brilliant pictures so easily. It's just infuriating, to be honest. That's great.
Speaker 3:And, I mean, I think, of course, the most important thing is that you enjoy your photography, and it's really nice that you can incorporate. You you've made some amazing photographs from your ski tours. You know, it just seems extraordinary to me they weren't dedicated photography tours. You're able to make such good pictures when you're just now with Rob and Co. So
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, Rob, it's normally just Rob and you're lucky he's quite patient.
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, in my case, I I I wish I could say I've done ski touring. I've done lots of walking through snow, often for long distances, but I would like to have been on skis but haven't been able to cope. I've often carried over 20 kilos, went out, you know, camping out overnight in those situations, and I'm afraid I carry on much as I have done before. I might sacrifice a lens or 2. When I was shooting with 5 by 4, probably would go from maybe 5 or 6 lenses down to 3.
Speaker 3:Today, the funny thing is that I I'm still carrying just as much weight. I'm not quite sure why that is. I I guess I feel that, you know, while I can and I should. So I don't think it's a feeling of, you know, wanting to suffer particularly. I don't mind carrying away really.
Speaker 3:It's, but it and, you you know, the the justification is as you move through the landscape, you eat at least some of your pack. Not literally, but, so, you know, the load gets heavier. It gets lighter as you go along, which is a really I mean, at the moment, I if I'm doing a a multi day, I I have I have gone out recently with an Alpa, and phase 1, with, a 40 and a 70 millimeter lens, which might 2 kind of, you know, wide angle and a standard. And and maybe a Sony with a 90 millimeter as well, so you get it's it's a wide angle standard and longer lens. And that works fine for me, I find.
Speaker 3:I mean, I'm a great believer in restrictions, and I I sometimes think it's, you know, having too much choice. Oh, it's nice to have choices, but, also, it's creatively it's quite challenging to do it all with one lens. So, why not? But I do take a tripod mainly because I I just I just I don't know. I love using a tripod.
Speaker 3:So I don't know. I could go without
Speaker 1:You get used to the way of working and way of refining pictures.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I love both ways of working, to be honest, but, it yeah. It's just not really practical for for for the, you know, the non dedicated photography stuff as a general rule to happen, you know, because I just know that I've got to kind of pick and choose my my times.
Speaker 1:Well, that's gonna be one probably last question for the day, which is about, composition and mood. Sven Tegelmose asked, can you ask Lizzie about her take on mood versus composition? And also Ian Meads has asked about how you compose your images about liberation or intuition. What are the composition skills innate, or do you have to spend spend a lot of time thinking about competition in the field and adjusting, etcetera? I think you get the idea of what the question is about.
Speaker 1:So, what what's your take? Especially when you're moving along in the landscape when it's not a dedicated trip. So the different different modes
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, that certainly for the for that sort of, you you know, it had that that just really isn't the opportunity to to fast. So you you have to you have to kind of see quickly and and and it can be quite annoying because you you you know, particularly for cross country skiing, you're in a rhythm and you have to, you know, I've I've found myself looking around also, I have to watch out, don't suddenly fall over because you just sort of catch catch something or whatever. So, yeah, in that situation, it is very much about just, sort of instinct. But, you know, it's an instinct that's obviously been developed over time from from kind of working hard at it you know there was a time you know about well probably over 10 years ago now when I kind of felt I really struggled to maybe see some of the less obvious scenes and I just kind of kind of made myself see better if you see what I mean, I don't know, I just sort of opened my eyes. It sounds simple, but, it you know, I think it is if you just if there's a willingness to look and that is, as I said, one of the things I love about photography is it does let you do that, but there will be other times when, you know, you're you're somewhere where you you kind of think there must be a picture here, but it isn't just jumping out at you and obviously then you are gonna spend a lot more time deliberating or sometimes there's that one where you you kind of see something that you think there must be a picture here and you'll spend ages trying to get it to balance out and, quite But yes.
Speaker 2:And and I mean, it's I know I've I've remember seeing St. Fairhouse because he mentioned it when I posted something about because of the talk that I do, which is getting close to retiring now on mood versus composition. And and in that respect, just generally, it's kind of more about the fact that quite often there are several compositions that might be equally valid but depending which one you opt for it's it's the fact that that creates a very different feel of image and you know and it's also I guess about those compromises that you perhaps have to make to to create the sort of image you want to to create to show, particularly, I think, if you're wanting to be true to the to the landscape that you're photographing and you want to show what it's like or what it means to you, however you like to look at it, I think you you know, how you compose it will will will have a massive impact on on how you, you know, on getting across what you see in it and and how you feel about it and, if that means kind of including funny things that maybe people wouldn't always include, then then that's fine if that's, you know, if that's how you see it.
Speaker 2:So that's kind of in a nutshell. I know you heard a sort of earlier version of that talk many years ago, but it's it's, yeah, it's about just to me, it's about just trying to be true to to what it is you're trying to portray. Hopefully, that sort of answers it.
Speaker 1:Yeah and is is there a an idea of allowing imperfections in the picture to try and create some mood that you're after or trying to fine tune it so there are no imperfections? Does it matter too much to you if there are?
Speaker 2:No. I mean it depends what you call an imperfection I guess. Yeah. I mean, I I have I've just got I've just got weird things that I don't like including in pictures like I don't I'd if I can possibly avoid a path, I will avoid a path, and I know that they work really well in pictures, but I just don't like them in my pictures. Now that is just me, if you see what I mean.
Speaker 2:That's just So it's not really an imperfection, is it? But, it just depends. I mean, I think certainly, you know, Celtic Woodlands, be they in in Yorkshire and as as you both know that that they are pretty chaotic here or the area we go to, Northern Greece, where it's just crazy massive color and textures and so on. I mean, you can't photograph that truly without there being in a sense imperfection as it is. It's just it's just mad, but that to me is what I love about it.
Speaker 2:So I don't, you know, I don't wanna exclude those things, and, you know, it won't be for everyone. But but, you know, I think it it is it is important to to be true to what is your photographing. But, yeah, I think, as I said, it just depends what what, what imperfect
Speaker 1:There's there's a there's a sort of, I won't say a fashion for it. I think in a lot of photographers, this idea that things compositions have to be perfect and you they'll go around removing distractions from the edge of the frame, whereas other photographers, say well it doesn't matter as much. And to be honest having judged a lot of competitions these sorts of distractions that people talk about aren't relevant when when you're assessing whether a picture is good or not. And I think you'd agree with that, would you, Joe?
Speaker 3:Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, gosh.
Speaker 3:There's so much to unpack there. I mean, I I think the essence of, you know, everything that Lizzie said made perfect sense to me. But, you know, finally, I I did want to say that a lot of it is emphasis. So your personal decision making about composition is what you want to emphasize. But, yes, there's often many valid versions of, of composition within a single space.
Speaker 3:And and and I I was fascinated to hear about your take your take on parts, and roots for a picture and trying to avoid them because clearly that is a device that many people use naturally because it is it's a sort of spatial thing. And but, yeah, it's it's good. It's good to have that individuality to not want to include that because maybe you don't actually want to show. You need to wanna show way into the picture. Maybe there's something, you know, sort of hidden or mysterious that you want to preserve.
Speaker 3:And so that's an aspect of emphasis. One of the things that, you know, we could talk a tiny bit more about before we finish, I think, is mood and what what that actually means. Well, I don't know if this is the same for you guys, but I I I use my iPhone for partly for visualization and making notes and stuff so I go along. And quite often, infuriating me, the iPhone picture is the best one. You know, I'd say I'd get the base one out and take a 150 megapixel composition and, you know, everything's nice and sharp.
Speaker 3:It doesn't look as good. Why? Because the mood has changed since the original idea happened, and I've faffed around too long. You know, it might be as little as 5 minutes or it might be half an hour. But and that in doing that flapping, the weather has changed, the clouds have changed, the, you know, the atmosphere has changed, the rain hasn't moved on or arrived or whatever.
Speaker 3:And all of those changes mean that what what actually sparked the original vision or concept has no longer valid. And and that's just one of the ongoing frustrations, if you like, of of photography, but it's kind of one of the things that keeps you keeps you going as well because you you want to make sure you you learn to understand that. And and sometimes the translations from from the iPhone to the face are actually quite good. But, you know, the data sometimes they aren't. And it's it's just that remembering and recognizing that mood is such an important component of what we do.
Speaker 3:But I don't know that any of us could really describe it or formulate it or or pack it into a box. It's a mysterious combination of synthesis of different aspects of of form, the structure, the composition, but in particular, the quality of light and how that interacts with the elements of the composition that you've made.
Speaker 1:Exactly, mate. It's not quite quickly, but it's difficult to It
Speaker 3:it's difficult to to and it's it's also because your you your mind becomes familiar with the scene very quickly, and it it adapts. So as it as the changes happen, you don't notice them so much. Mhmm. And that that could be problematic in a way as well. And finally, Tim, I just have to mention this imperfection thing.
Speaker 3:I mean, personally, in the whole concept of a perfect landscape is ludicrous. The the whole in a way, for me, the whole point of life is that that I mean, literally, evolution requires imperfection. If you if you think of perfection as as consistently repeating something, endlessly, You know, what makes evolution happen is is, you know, genetic variation, if you will, you know, the so called imperfections that that that, you know, I can't that essentially allows us to metamorphose to adapt to different niches in, you know, in in the environment. And, so in a sense, perfection is antithetical to life itself. So I genuinely see imperfection as as a very, very important part of what we do, preserving it.
Speaker 3:Imperfection, that is.
Speaker 1:What a good good finish good way to finish. Well, yeah, that's the end of episode 2. So I'll have to say thank you very much to, Lizzie Shepherd and to Joe Cornish. Really enjoyed that. And we actually got through all the questions.
Speaker 1:It is fantastic.
Speaker 2:Wow. Thank
Speaker 1:you. Thank you very much. And we'll, put some of your details on the website when we publish it, and we'll leave it there until the next episode. Goodbye.
Speaker 2:Goodbye. Bye bye.
